Friddy Hoegener: 0:00

They're replacing jobs. They're, they're eliminating entry level roles. They are eliminating that, funnel towards their leaders too, because it's an immediate impact on the bottom line, right? It's an immediate impact on profit. You shrink your workforce, your efficiency stays the same.

Tom Raftery: 0:24

If AI takes over the work people learn on, where will your next generation of leaders come from? Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, where everywhere in the world. Welcome to episode 139 of Resilient Supply Chain - Stories and Strategies that Keep Business Moving. I'm your host, Tom Raftery. Today I'm joined by Friddy Hoegener, a former supply chain professional who now runs Scope Recruiting. He makes a useful challenge. Entry-level roles may need to become more strategic, sooner. For supply chain leaders making hiring and automation decisions. We'll explore how to develop the judgement your business will need next. Let's get into it. Friddy. Welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself?

Friddy Hoegener: 1:14

Hey Tom. Thanks for having me. So I am Friddy Hoegener. I'm the owner here at Scope Recruiting. I started my career in supply chain with ABB in a rotational program. And then about 10 years ago, we decided to start Scope Recruiting, really with the idea of having former supply chain professionals recruit for supply chain position. That's really the, the main idea.

Tom Raftery: 1:37

Okay, and you've worked inside procurement and now in recruiting, so what did you see from the inside that made you think this industry was being hired for badly? You know what, what? What was the problem you're trying to fix?

Friddy Hoegener: 1:50

Supply chain managers can be a hundred different things, and there's a lot of different nuances on what a supply chain manager does in any given industry, right? And having that knowledge and understanding that I think is the first step in being able to find the right candidates, right? If you don't understand the role, if you don't understand why companies looking to fill this role, it's gonna be very hard to match the right candidates to that role. And then on the flip side, when talking to candidates, 1) candidates really appreciated when they felt like they were talking to somebody who understood what they were doing, who could speak the language. And it wasn't just a list of questions that were being asked, but it was more of a, a conversation. And the last piece to the puzzle is that, that having experience in those roles then allowed us to really evaluate if the candidates look just good on paper, if they can actually walk the talk, right? Ask a follow up question, ask a second follow up question, and really dig a little bit deeper into the, skills and experience and what a typical recruiter who doesn't understand supply chain, right? They might be stuck in that first, maybe second layer, but they certainly won't go any deeper than that.

Tom Raftery: 2:55

And when companies are hiring, you know, what are companies misunderstanding when they think they're hiring a, a supply chain leader?

Friddy Hoegener: 3:05

Really, I think it starts with, defining the role. I think a lot of companies they're, they're in time constraints. Everybody's busy. Everybody has other things to do, and taking the time and, defining the role with all stakeholders upfront, it's something a lot of companies already miss on, and that then creates a lengthy hiring process and they find out during the hiring process that they weren't aligned, right? It might be the hiring managers looking for a supply chain manager that is focused on demand planning and procurement, and then it goes up to the VP level and the VP level thinks, no, we really need somebody who is very strong on logistics. So, having that, misalignment is I think the number one reason we see why my hiring processes stall and candidates aren't evaluated quickly. So what we typically do is we go in and we create a, candidate scorecard, almost like a vendor scorecard, right? And we create an idea candidate profile, and then we go in and we ask our clients, Hey, does this idea candidate profile look like what you're looking and who are you looking to hire? Once we have that agreement then it becomes a lot easier and we send over the scorecards and say, Hey, this is how we grade those candidates compared to the scorecard. And it's as objective as you can be, right? There's always gonna be some subjectivity in the process, but I think having a standardised process and how you evaluate candidate is another, big thing. I think having those two things in place before you start your hiring process puts you ahead of the curve by by a mile.

Tom Raftery: 4:37

And what often gets missed then in a job brief?

Friddy Hoegener: 4:42

I think a lot of times the job descriptions are still generic. I think this is a, a spot where AI can be really helpful because again, I think it's, it's down to a time crunch, right? Nobody really wants to, customise every job description. So what used to happen is like people would grab that standard supply chain manager job description from the shelf and just plug it in there and say, Hey, let's see who applies. Let's see what we find. I think this is a, a great spot where AI can bring a lot of value and you can go in and say, Hey, we have this standard job description here. No, these are the things I really need this candidate to be strong at that have experience and then. I think the next step is then what does success look like in the first six months, 12 months? Putting that in the job description and saying, okay, when you come into this role, what do we want you to do in those first six months? What do we want you to do in the first 12 months? What does success look like? I think that gives candidates a much clearer picture of what they can expect than a, than a standard job description. So utilising AI to do those things, to customise your job descriptions, will significantly increase the quality of candidates you're getting.

Tom Raftery: 5:49

And is there a talent shortage in supply chain now, or is it mostly a clarity problem within companies, do you think?

Friddy Hoegener: 5:57

I think it's both. As long as I've been in supply chain, people have been talking about there being a talent shortage within supply chain. And that's been 15 years now. For 15 years. we've been told there's a talent shortage, and I certainly still think that's true, especially on the strategic side. I mean, we are looking to hire for, for a director of, steel category management right now on those very niche, very specialised roles are still scarce. There's still a talent shortage in a lot of ways. There is talent in that mid-level generalist supply chain role there is quite a few there, but there is certainly a lack of, entry level talent that's strategic. And there is a lack of very niche talent for specific industries, right? And especially for example, right now, the, obviously the data centers are hard. Everything around data centers is, is booming. So there we definitely see a talent shortage again, while other industries that, that were booming 3, 4, 5 years ago, you can find more talent. Now. Automotive is one, even tech. Tech has been laying off a lot of people. So you can find people in those areas. But in general, I think what companies are still struggling and a lot of companies we work with are still going through the transformation process of turning a tactical supply chain function into a strategic business function. And I think there's still a lack on the market for that type of talent that can transform a procurement organisation, make it strategic and, mentor the people that are already in the function to become more strategic.

Tom Raftery: 7:38

And should it be the case that companies, if they can't find someone that fits exactly the brief that they have? As you say, there are people from automotive and there are people from tech. Should they consider bringing them in and bringing them up to speed on what they want the job brief to be? Or should they just hang on until they find someone who fits the role exactly?

Friddy Hoegener: 8:02

No, I think absolutely. I think the, the industry requirements I think in my mind should go away. For the most part. I think this is another point where, where AI can deliver a lot of value, right? Those specialists where it took you. Years and years to gain that knowledge. I think with, with AI you can, you can inform yourself a lot quicker. You can learn a lot more about steel, the different steel types with AI a lot quicker these days than it used to. So I think the, the skillset has, has shifted a little bit. I think it's more about the people that are adaptable now, that are agile, that can work, cross-functional, that can communicate with the executive level, that can look at data and, and tell a story with data. Right. I think those are the skill sets that are gonna be much more important already, but also in the next five years than that, very niche skillset knowledge about certain categories or something that, used to be the case 10, 15 years ago.

Tom Raftery: 8:59

Mm. I remember when I was starting out in the the mid nineties, an engineer telling me, Tom, a good engineer isn't someone who has all the answers. A good engineer is someone who knows where to go to find the answers. So to your point about AI,

Friddy Hoegener: 9:14

Yeah, and that's the same case in supply chain, right? A, a good, supply chain professional has a, a set of skills and experience and tools that can be applied almost anywhere, right? There's always a little bit of a learning curve, but really the, underlying foundation and process and methodology stays the same for the most part.

Tom Raftery: 9:35

And what then does a good hiring process look like when the role really matters?

Friddy Hoegener: 9:42

I think it's, decisive. The one thing I would say is dragging candidates through seven, eight rounds of interviews is, not productive and especially not if you're looking to attract top talent. I think right at executive level that might make sense. But for, for entry level roles, I think the hiring process should match the level of the roles. Shorter 2, 3, 4 rounds of interviews for entry level roles, and then increasingly more rounds for the more senior you get. But I think at the end of the day, it really comes down to knowing what you're looking for. And then when you find that person being ready to, hire. We had it happen just now where we thought we had everybody on, on the same page. And then all of a sudden there's another VP of engineering now who needs to be in the role and in the process. And he said, well, this candidate looks great. I really like her, but I would like to see two or three more just to make sure we tested the water. And I was like, we are, we're not testing the water. Right. And we are not. When you're trying to, get top talent, and you have an ideal, candidate profile and you have a scorecard, and you find that nine out of 10, 10 out of 10. You don't need to test the water anymore. Right? And that's kind of where, the hiring process breaks down, where those additional rounds really hurt you. Because those candidates, if they are on the market and they're looking, they're not on the market for very long. And that's how you lose top candidates by, hesitating and we're never advocating for hiring somebody who's not a great fit for the role. Robot. We are advocating for moving quickly when you find somebody who is a great fit.

Tom Raftery: 11:19

Very good. And how then can you tell the difference between someone who can talk supply chain and someone who can actually operate in it?

Friddy Hoegener: 11:29

Good question and and that's certainly something some people are better at faking that than others. But I think getting hands on details of project experience of things they have done themselves, not right. We have, found 20 million in savings and we did an RFQ. You really want to narrow down what was your part in this process? What did you do? What is your hands on experience? What are the KPIs? And we always tell our, our candidates when we, when we prep 'em for interviews, you want to match your experience with specific examples and specific results and outcomes. This is what I've done, or this is what the situation was. This is what we decided to do, or you decided to do. And this is the outcome. Having those measurable results, having, and then a lot of times you find out quickly, right? Were they just executing a category strategy or were they the one creating the category strategy right. Everybody knows in those large organisations that matrix organisations, there's typically somebody who sets a, a corporate category strategy, and then this gets pushed into the different businesses. So a lot of times when we are looking for, candidates, we are looking for the ones who are creating the category strategy and not necessarily executing the category strategy. And I think 1), knowing supply chain allows you to, to even understand those differences. 2), then yeah, just getting very specific and detail oriented answers, usually a good indicator that that person can then also deliver on their promises and, and typically right phrases like the team looked at it or we decided as a team, or I was involved in an ERP implementation and was like, no, tell me, tell me exactly what your role was in that ERP implementation. What specifications did you provide to the team? How hands-on were, were you in that, implementation? what exactly did you do? So getting to the nitty gritty is typically where you find the good and great candidates.

Tom Raftery: 13:40

And a lot of leaders still lean heavily on pedigree, logos, and years served. How often do those signals mislead?

Friddy Hoegener: 13:52

I think experience is, hard to, to replace, right? More so than degrees, I think more so than certifications. Having the hands-on experience, I think is still the number one asset somebody can have. But then it also comes down to right, a lot of times personality, and how quickly can they adopt to different scenarios. So what we see a lot is midsize companies who are looking to transition and a lot of times they don't want corporate people because they feel that those corporate people, a lot of times there's very strictly defined responsibilities. They have a, a large group of, people working with them. So they have an analyst. They have, an IT group. And then a lot of the midterm or mid-size companies we work with, it's more of the all hands on deck. You wear whatever hat fits today kind of mentality, right? It's not, okay, this is not within my wheelhouse. This is not what I was hired to do, right? This is not in, in those mid-sized organisations, it's just you have to take care of whatever comes across your desk today. And that can be a little bit of a culture shock when, when people come from those larger organisations where everything is, clearly defined, to go to a smaller organisation where now you have to get your own data for director level. Right now you have to get into the ERP system, get your own data, create your Excel sheet, and manipulate the data yourself. So a lot of times what our clients like is if somebody started within the large organisation, they had the training, they had the mentorship, they have seen best practices, they have seen what world class looks like. But they got fed up with the bureaucracy a little bit, right? They weren't happy with the pace at which those larger organisations were moving. So they have transitioned to the smaller organisations where they maybe can have a little bit more impact. So that's typically right, the best of two worlds. You have seen the world class, you've had the training, but you also have that hands-on mentality. That's probably the case we see most often, and I think that's something I find very reasonable. And the, in the larger organisations, Cisco, for example. A lot of times they end up hiring from Intel, from AMD, from Nvidia, from these other large companies, just because they feel like that's where the most overlap is.

Tom Raftery: 16:04

And what about AI then? Because it's changing everything as we know. How is it changing the shape of supply chain hiring?

Friddy Hoegener: 16:12

It's empowering people, right? And I think, we see companies go one of two ways. There's company, let's call 'em company A that are trying to replace as much with AI as possible. And so they're replacing jobs. They're, they're eliminating entry level roles. They are eliminating that, funnel towards their, their leaders too, because it's an immediate impact on the bottom line, right? It's an immediate impact on profit. You, you shrink your workforce, your efficiency stays the same. So that's, I think very, very enticing for a lot of companies. But we also see companies who are saying, okay. We need to now shift on, on especially entry level roles on our tactical roles. They now have 30, 40, 50% more capacity. What can they do with that capacity that we never had time to do before? What can they look at? What's the business case? And I think that's where, where that new skillset, where we talked about early on in the episode really comes into play here where, where I think now, right? Being able to tell a story with data, making a business case and presenting that to your organisation and say, Hey, have we ever looked at this? Or, we have never been able to look at this before, how do you feel about exploring these different areas? It could be having a vendor in each region. So in term, if, if terrorists pop up, if another pandemic pop up, you're not scrambling to qualify new vendors because you've had the time before even, so maybe it wasn't necessary, but now you do have an approved vendor in, in Europe you do have an approved vendor in South America. So these types of things, I think, become increasingly viable now that you have that capacity. I think this is where entry level jobs are, are morphing from tactical data entry, PO sending entry level roles to now with AI. Those, those entry level roles have to become more strategic sooner, and I think AI provides a little bit of guardrails there for early level candidates that might not have the experience to really be strategic. But I think they can use AI as a sounding board and they can use AI to map out their ideas. This is where we see those, those transition too on the, manager level and above side. I think AI allows you to get to the decision making step a lot quicker. Data analysis takes less time. Sending out your RFQs, preparing your RFQs consolidating the data, looking through the data. Getting different inputs right on, on what you need for your category strategy. Where are the locations? How far is each location? What will be my logistics spend if I go by steal from here from a mill versus a distributor from somebody who's closer? Getting all that data now has gotten a lot easier and a lot quicker. So I think it allows people in in that decision making level already to get to that point quicker. And I think that's gonna stay the, the human element, right? I think it's. It's the, decision making process. It's pointing AI into the right areas and say, Hey, we haven't looked at this. Go get me this data. Go look at this. What other alternative vendors do we have in this area that we might not have looked at or that we haven't known in the past? So I think right, people are gonna be the, the creative part, but they're also gonna have the responsibility and the decision making part. So I think. this is where AI transforms the supply chain role at a higher level.

Tom Raftery: 19:38

Okay. It occurs to me as you're saying all that, that there's an opportunity for a lot of organisations there if they're willing to embrace it, to have maybe a weekly or a monthly get together of employees where people talk about the, the latest thing that they've created with AI and share that knowledge within the organisation so that everyone comes up and maybe it's incentivised within the company. Best suggestion of use of AI for the month gets. A star or a cookie or, or a bonus or whatever it is, you know, have you come across anyone doing anything like that?

Friddy Hoegener: 20:16

We haven't seen it yet, but I think that's the logical next step, I think, right? This is where, where it has to go if you, don't want to keep your status quo, but if you want to embrace AI to, charge your growth and to expand and, and not to stay where you're at today. And this is where that different skillset that we talked about earlier on comes into play, right? It's that making that business case, stakeholder management, telling a story with data, and being able, right. You're not sitting at your desk and say, for, for your extra 30, 40% capacity, twiddling your thumbs. And I'm like, okay, what am I gonna do now? I think it's the ability and, and the drive to look at it and say, okay. We can do this now and present it to the business in a, in a way that the business say, Hey, why haven't we done this before? Let's go and explore this.

Tom Raftery: 21:06

Yeah. Yeah. And and where do you think companies are overestimating AI and conversely underestimating it?

Friddy Hoegener: 21:46

Yeah, we've had AI in some shape or form for a long time. It's an algorithm and algorithms and, and those forecasting models and things have been within the supply chain tools for a long time. What those LLMs do is right it's, it can be applied everywhere. Where before we had the very niche use cases where we used algorithms for forecasting, for prediction, now it's just a more, broader use case and I think companies, and I think some of the people developing AI are over promising on what AI will do. I don't think it will replace nearly as many people as, they would like us make to believe I think. And the models that can be rolled out on mass on scale are more of a, sounding board, a, a helping hand. But they still need oversight, right? They still need, training on how to prompt. You still need experience, I think working with them to know exactly where you have to double check, what can you trust and, and how to interact with them. So I think utilising and working with AI is, is, is very important. And I think we're gonna have to have people that can steer AI, utilise AI, and know what the strengths and weaknesses of AI are, and then in the end AI is gonna make people better. Well, I've, I've heard it a couple times, say, no. People utilising AI will replace people. AI will not necessarily replace a lot of the jobs a hundred percent.

Tom Raftery: 23:16

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. And if we talk a little bit about the patterns that you're seeing in the talent market right now, where are you seeing the demand being strongest, for example?

Friddy Hoegener: 23:27

It's within those industries that are booming here in the US. It's the, data centers or any electrical equipment manufacturer that go into data centers. The, the power stations, the, the controls, the relays, the things that go into the data centers. A lot of them are, are booming. And anybody who has experience around that is in very high demand. What we are seeing is, is that transition from a tactical purchasing organisation to a strategic business function, I think in 2026, everybody has realised that if your supply chain is just a tactical function, and a pandemic hits, tariff hits you're falling behind on the curve. So we still see a big push in set, especially in the in the middle market organisations that have suffered from all those supply chain disruptions that have now come and said, okay, we, we have to be prepared. We have to be more, strategic in how our supply chain operates. And I think that's still the biggest push is getting those, middle market companies ready to, to be more agile. They didn't have to be. They, a lot of them were single source. They knew they were getting their things from China. That worked well for, 15, 20 years, and all of a sudden over the last five years, none of that has worked anymore.

Tom Raftery: 24:44

And what would you say has surprised you most in the last year about how the market is shifting?

Friddy Hoegener: 24:51

I would say it's gotten very tough to recruit in California. If you're not already in California, it's almost impossible to get candidates to go to California. And the other one that's been tough is relocating, right? When everybody had those great 2%, 3% mortgage rates, and there was definitely a time over the last 24 months where we're getting candidates to relocate became a much bigger obstacle because they said, okay, I'm making 200,000. I wanna be making 220, 240,000. And then they looked at interest rates and they did the math and then was like, actually, I'm still breaking even almost. And so that was definitely a, a much bigger hurdle over the last couple of years too. You had to stay a lot more local. You had to find candidates a lot more local. Well, really you had to present candidates with, with something more than money because most companies, right they, they do have to stay within a budget range. They do have to stay within salary ranges. They can't just go and say, okay, we pay you a lot more when nobody else at that level gets, that's that kind of money. So, a lot of times businesses had to say, okay, this is the impact you can have here. This is what you can build here. This is where you could be in two or three years. They had to have a career trajectory, and I think they had, to present themselves as, as an opportunity for somebody to make a difference. It wasn't just about money anymore, so companies really had to sit down and say, okay, how do we attract those candidates? What can we offer to those candidates that's appealing.

Tom Raftery: 26:20

Okay. And looking towards the future, what supply chain skills do you think look the most future proof from where you sit?

Friddy Hoegener: 26:30

It's data analysis with the help of AI, the, cross functional communication, stakeholder management, and the ability to adopt to different scenarios. It's not necessarily that supply chain knowledge and specific categories that you've accumulated over the last 10 years, it's really more so how quickly can you, can you pivot? How can you work with the different groups within your business and how can you look at the business in new ways that haven't been, looked at. And how do you present that to the executive team? Those are the skills that, that I'm gonna be most thought after and, and people who are embracing change and new technology, right? There's always the people you have to drag into a new time and to drag to accept a new ERP system and they're always gonna tell you for the next 10 years how everything was better on the previous ERP system. Then there are other people who, who are embracing it, right? And there's never been more and faster change than, than we have today. So the people who are embracing it and who are willing to learn and who are willing to work with AI, I think are gonna be the people who will be successful for the next 10, 20 years.

Tom Raftery: 27:44

And if companies keep automating entry level work, how do they avoid creating a leadership pipeline problem down the line?

Friddy Hoegener: 27:52

I don't think they can, I think they might realise too because you, you can't just pluck all the leaders from, from different organisations. You have to have some leaders that have grown from within. The, the companies that have put the effort in and that had the foresight to see the need for leaders are gonna be fighting for those leaders. And I think those, leaders will also be loyal. They're gonna see, okay, they were companies who took the, the shortcut, who wanted the immediate profits and who eliminated those entry level roles. And there were the companies who had the foresight to see. Okay. We have to shift our entry level roles to something new that can grow our future leader. So I think the companies who, who make the ladder move, who have the foresight, who, who sh right. They might only have eight out of 10, nine out of 10 entry level roles available. They might not have all 10 out of 10 available, but they know they still need them and they have shifted and they have made them useful in other ways. And the companies that are down to three, four out of 10 entry level roles, I think they will, they will struggle going forward.

Tom Raftery: 28:57

Would you say that a lot of companies are still hiring for the current fire and not the next fire?

Friddy Hoegener: 29:02

Yes. we don't see a lot of, foresight. It's. It's the next year what do we need right now, and, and very few companies are saying, okay, what do we need in five years?

Tom Raftery: 29:12

That means your job is secure. Friddy that's been really interesting. If people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me direct them?

Friddy Hoegener: 29:24

You can find me on LinkedIn, Friddy Hoegener. I think there's only one. And then you can visit our website, scope recruiting.com and there's a large insight section where we have a lot of interesting blogs and insights about the hiring market, career, advice, and also a link to our podcast

Tom Raftery: 29:43

Fantastic. Great. Oh, we didn't mention the podcast before now. So what's the name of the podcast for people who are interested?

Friddy Hoegener: 29:50

Procurement Pulse.

Tom Raftery: 29:53

Procurement Pulse. Great. I'll link to that in the show notes as well so people can find it easily.

Friddy Hoegener: 29:55

Awesome.

Tom Raftery: 29:56

Friddy this has been fascinating. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today.

Friddy Hoegener: 29:59

Thank you so much.