AI will not solve your problems. It's not gonna solve your problems. It's not gonna do it. Making good decisions. It's a decision architecture, like thinking about how you make decisions, what data you need to make those good decisions. That's gonna solve your problems. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 102 of the Resilient Supply Chain podcast. I'm your host Tom Raftery. Over the Christmas break I replayed a couple of episodes from my Climate Confident Podcast. Useful pauses, but now we're back to our regular programming and back to the sharp end of how companies actually operate. Today's conversation sits right at the intersection of safety, sustainability, data, and supply chain resilience. And it tackles a problem many organisations still struggle with -environmental health and safety on the one side, sustainability and ESG on the other. Two teams, two systems, two languages, and far too often two completely separate views of risk. Because when climate risk starts shutting down facilities, disrupting logistics, or putting workers in danger, the line between sustainability and operations disappears very quickly. At that point, this isn't about reporting, it's about resilience. To unpack what real integration looks like in practice, I'm joined today by two people who've been living this reality for decades. Catryna Jackson, global Environmental Health and Safety and Sustainability Advisor at Evotix and Monique Parker, Chief Sustainability Officer at Elevra Lithium. Between them, they've worked across multiple industries, continents and regulatory regimes, and they've seen what happens when data, decision making and responsibility are either aligned or badly fragmented. In this episode, we talk about why capital markets have done more to drive sustainability than regulation in some regions, how climate risk increasingly shows up as safety risk, why AI won't fix broken decision making, and what organisations consistently underestimate when it comes to EHS, sustainability, and supply chain engagement. And as always, if you want full access to the entire back catalog of over 480 episodes, plus a direct line to me for feedback, ideas, and guest suggestions, you'll find the Resilient Supply chain Plus subscribe link in the show notes. Now, Catryna, Monique, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourselves? Yay. Hi, I'm Catryna Jackson. I'm the Global Environmental Health and Safety and Sustainability Advisor for Evotix Environmental Health and Safety Software and Sustainability Solutions. I have been with them for almost five years, and in the sustainability, pollution prevention, hazardous material, hazardous waste, environmental compliance space for over 25 years. I'm excited to join you today. Thank you Catryna and Monique. Yes. Good day to all. My name is Monique Parker. I currently am the Chief Sustainability officer of Elevra Lithium. I've been with Elevra for four and a half years now. Been doing environmental health and safety for just as long as Catryna has. And I've done it in a lot of different industries, aerospace, chemicals, building materials, textiles, so. Been around the block for quite a few years in a lot of different industries and very happy to be here. But my role within sustainability is very broad 'cause it covers environmental health, safety, sustainability, community, and risk. So looking forward to joining the group and having a lively conversation. Fantastic. Monique. And Catryna, at a high level, let's start off with what do you work on day to day and what originally pulled you into the EHS sustainability space? It is where I started life. I started, I graduated from college. I got recruited by a recruiter to work with a defense contractor who was implementing an environmental health and safety software. And that's how I sort of got into the juxtaposition between environmental health and safety and technology. I absolutely loved that job. And I decided this is where I will be. I never thought, I did not do anything computer science related or tech related in college and never thought that that would be the direction I would go. But I discovered I really had a, an affinity for data management software architecture, and in a general sense, coding and programming. Not in depth, but just, just enough to be dangerous, just enough, just enough to be dangerous. At Evotix I was able to further combine and refine those skills, so I'm able to provide customers the experience that I have as an environmental health and safety professional, having worked, because I worked as a consultant for many years for Fortune 500 companies around the world, as well as the Department of Defense. I'm used to doing a certain amount of environmental health and safety tasks, pen and paper. So I'm able to bring that experience with me now to my clients who are undergoing the digital transformation process. I work with clients on a regular basis evaluating our software, helping them see how their data can be managed within our system effectively. And also creating architecture that makes sense for our clients worldwide. And just keeping up with sustainability and environmental health and safety policy so that we can be proactive in our product management, for our customers. Okay. And Monique, as one of those customers, and from the operator's side, what does your role look like day to day and what made this work feel mission critical rather than kind of an optional add-on? So, as a chemical engineer, I always wanted to do environmental, and when I had the opportunity to do environmental health and safety, it was really the best of both worlds for me. So my day to day to day is more, very much more strategic, high level, establishing management systems, looking for tools such as Evotix to help us manage all of the things that we need to, whether it was incident management, sustainability metrics, permitting responsibilities. I can go on and on of all the modules and tools that we use Evotix to do. But it was really the day-to-day today is really about bringing all of my 20 plus years of experience together and helping our organisation as a whole operate functionally, collaboratively. And connected in a way, although we're on diff different geographies, bringing all of that together. And you've both been in the industry two decades at least, as you've both mentioned now. Tell me, Catryna first, and then Monique, what has been the thing that has surprised you most being in the industry? Oh my gosh. There are so many surprises. Can I tell you, when I first started in this pollution prevention was a huge thing 20 years ago. And I really thought it was going to be the EPA and that whole pollution prevention push that would get us to sustainability. That seemed to be the direction we were going. It would be compliance driven, it would be governed and managed by a federal entity in the American side. And that's, where sustainability was going to get its largest push. To my surprise and often horror, it has actually been the capitalists who have pushed sustainability forward in America. It, it's been a shock. Great. It's been a shock to see sustainability, actually. The, the biggest support and the foundation that has buoyed sustainability has come from the financial sector and has come from the risk sector. And I did not expect that to happen. The task force for climate related financial disclosures, TCFD was first formed. Never thought that would be, accountants and investors did not expect that at all. So that for me has been the biggest surprise to see where the push for sustainability in ESG has come from. And it has not come from the environmentalists as much as it has come from the capitalists. Well, I guess we've all seen Erin Brockovich, so the kind of payout that that was given out there was a warning to all the other polluters to beware. Yes, yes, who knew that was what we should have been focusing on from the very beginning, had no idea. And also for us here in America, all of the hurricanes, so seeing all of the storm damage was also a huge push for TCFD to be created and create those standards. So that was, a shock that that's where it came from, because, fully expected, and I, I was one of the first presenters for the pollution prevention round table that took place in DC every year. I think they also take place in Boston now or now, only take place in Boston, but fully expected that to be the push, that would be the sector where it came from. Compliance, a federal entity, regulatory control and reporting. And that is not what happened. Right, and Monique. I think my biggest surprise on the industry side of things has been the breadth that sustainability has taken. So when we started 20 years ago, it was sustainability meant environmental. That was really all you thought about. It was environmental, whether it was water, waste, air, climate wasn't even a thing 20 years ago when you were talking about sustainability, which wasn't used broadly at all. So the biggest surprise for me has been the scope that sustainability now covers meaning it covers all those things that people used to think, but now we look at human capital, we look at, governance. We look at so many other things, because at the end of the day, it's about being a sustainable company and sustainability of all of that comes together. So that was my biggest surprise, is the breadth that sustainability now touches and encompasses. But also very similar to Catryna the advocates of where sustainability drives what we in industry do today is very much driven by stakeholders, by the financial basis, by, you know, so many other things outside of just regulatory and compliance. Interesting. Okay, great. And let's zoom out from individual roles to the system companies are trying to manage. And Monique, from your experience inside organisations, what you do EHS and sustainability still end up running in parallel rather than together? I think it's because of, what we were just talking about because sustainability or ESG is seen more as a financial demand sometimes versus an operational demand. That's how they are sometimes parallel than whether than integrated. We are seeing more companies bring them together. It's not just my role, it's encompassing all aspects of that, whether it's the reporting side or the operation side, but it's gonna take time because companies don't realise. Some companies, I should say, don't realise how integrated all of those pieces are, and I think that's why they're in parallel. But I do see more integration happening. I don't think it's gonna happen overnight where, you know, we are all speaking the same language and we understand the same words because we still use the same words and mean completely different things. And so once we can really educate ourselves and integrate, it'll be easier to align versus being parallel. Okay. And Catryna zooming out across industries, do you see the same root causes repeating? What I see often is that companies quickly realise that environmental health and safety professionals sit on a gold mine of data. Like they are the purveyors of information. They've been getting it for various reasons, but primarily it's been used for compliance. And so they see an opportunity to say, Hey like, Monique, we have someone so qualified and, and so great, she'll do sustainability too and it'll be great. And I see that quite a bit. For larger enterprises, what I see is that EHS is operational and then sustainability is more strategic. And it's more of a c-suite level enterprise where it brings together stakeholders and executive level decision makers, making decisions and seeing a company from more of a risk point of view. So there's only two options that I've ever seen. It's either you have the environmental health and safety professional is now doing sustainability also, or the environmental health and safety professional is completely divorced from any of the sustainability data and is unaware of any of it taking place other than providing certain bits of that data for strategic decision making across the organisation. So if the split is the problem, what does bridging it actually look like? Catryna when EHS and sustainability are genuinely integrated, what actually changes in how risks are identified and managed? I just did a webinar on ESG data Intelligence and I really talk about how that wasn't even a word that we used together just five years ago. Who, who talked about ESG data intelligence? So everything that we're doing is so new. I feel like every day it's creating history because it's things that we've never done before. Companies are just realising how strategic it is and proactive, really predictive. These are predictive analytics that we're using now when we combine ESG data and EHS data because now you're able to predict outcomes that you weren't even able to see before. So when you combine emissions data with chemical spill or incident data, and you're able to say, Hey, wait, we're seeing a pattern here. We need to look at our chemical management process, our chemical storage process. Maybe there's a change that we can make in what we're using for this process. You're able to be predictive and have insights that weren't even available five years ago. And if I can add to that Tom, I'll say with my role being that we have bridged it at our company. The one thing that it really helps with is I have a seat at the table. So being part of our C-Suite, I can bring in all of those variables that may get missed because we are looking at risk, we are making decisions as a holistic, we're looking at where we spend our money, how we spend our money, what that looks like, and because my background and the experience and the, the groups that support the area that I support, we're able to have more visibility and input at the that last decision point versus integral at the beginning, and then hope it gets trickled through the rest of the process. And where do then things like climate driven risks start looking like safety risks? Catryna and I've talked about this many times, but one of the things that we've talked about in presentations that we've done is, you know, like hurricanes and other weather impacts that are very much driven by climate, I mean, whether you're a naysayer or not, the science is there that shows that there's a, a deliberate connection. And so where I see climate impacting those other decision points is when you can't operate your plant because it's down, because you don't have natural resources, the water's out, the power's out, or you have so much damage to your property that you can't operate. Those are areas where I see climate impacting operations and they're impacting the bottom line of companies. We have flooding that is happening in areas that's never happened before. So, you know, we look at all these different pieces and whether it's a storm, winter storm, hurricane, tornado, whether it's flooding. Everything is gonna impact the end of the day, how manufacturing happens because there's some piece of the supply chain that will be impacted, so therefore it impacts the bottom line and therefore the company. And here in Florida, heat stress. Dealing with heat stress issues that companies haven't dealt with before, and finding that those heat stress issues are traveling north. So it used to be something that was really dedicated to the southern portion of our country. Or even, you know, certain parts of continents had to worry about heat stress issues, shade. Thinking about that as far as, outdoor working field workers and more and more states that are, it's moving north, are having to think about heat stress. So as you're planning out, what that workflow is going to look like now having to consider the issues of heat stress. Yeah, and wildfires would be another one, I guess. Yes, most definitely. Wildfires, we're seeing them everywhere and you know, the impact it has on the environment and the health of the employees because of the smoke and those types of inhalations. You're definitely seeing a lot of different impacts that we haven't seen as frequent as do today And Monique, from an operator's perspective, again, when you have the EHS and sustainability treated as one system rather than two, is there anything that kind of pops up that surprises leadership? We've been talking about risk. I think the impact of risk pops up a lot more quickly because we're now equating risk more broadly and differently. So we're looking at risk of operations. We're looking at risk to environmental health and safety, to financial risk, legal risk. All of those populate up collectively now. It's not just EHS saying, these are my risk. And financing, and these are their risk. But because we are one unit and we're looking at it broadly, then we see them collectively and it's our role within the organisation to manage how those conversations come up. And so I'll say, for me, that's the one thing that has really increased and enhanced our visibility and leadership throughout. And has that impacted things like decision speed or workforce engagement? For our company, not really, because we were always, our leadership is quick to make decisions in regards to once they have the information, there's a decision that's made. It's not, you know, one of those things that populates and takes forever. So for us, I haven't, but I've talked with other colleagues and I'm sure Catryna has as well, where it has improved decision making because they don't have to wait as long to gather the information from another group to bring it to the table because it's already there and present. And it's something that we look at on a more frequent basis because it's part of our natural KPIs and not a afterthought. Okay, and catryna? I was just going to say she is very unique in that it doesn't, your decision making is, is efficient because typically, you know That's what I was thinking mm-hmm it is review, rehash, rewind. i mean, oh. And that loop over and over again until someone finally says, okay, we're gonna make a decision and it's six months later. Or a year. Or a year, to be fair. I've been in those organisations so I know very well. Oh my goodness. And it's so super frustrating. But I do think that when they're combined, at least there's data tells a story. And when you have the right data, you can tell a very compelling story. And it helps to make very good, wise, efficient, timely decisions. And that is going to be also the challenge of ESG going forward is the data management component. We're looking at CSRD with 1,145 data points as it was passed initially with the omnibus. Some things are reduced and I'm, still wading through all of that, but that's a lot of data to manage nonetheless. Our challenge going forward is going to be how we manage that data. How do we use that data to make good decisions, timely decisions, and also do we have any strategy for managing all of the data that we are collecting? Do do we have a real strategy? I thought it was really neat. You actually had a speaker, on your show Tom and his company did nothing but data management. I think his name was Andy with SCIP. Yeah, that I was fascinated by that one because who knew there would be so many point solutions for things just like that. They realised that there's a real need to effectively manage data because there are a lot of errors. There is a lot of gaps in data and we see that all the time. So, you know, we'll get a customer and then the next, the next challenge, like literally the next challenge the next day is, what's your data look like? Because now we need to bring in loads of historical data, existing data, and then, figure out as we bring in that data, okay, where does it make sense for this data, to sit and how do you want it visualised? So all of these decisions, like it's immediate. It's like the first thing, one of the first things that we are, that's our worry. That's our first roadblock. What was your data look like? How are we gonna get it into the system? Have you traditionally managed it? Who's inputting your data? Has it been democratised? Is it just you? Those are the very first questions that we have to ask. And Monique, what does your data look like? We have a ton of data and we're growing and developing because is a company that's merged two different companies together. And so we have some that is very much in Excel spreadsheets. It needs to be data mined. We have some that we've integrated into the Evotix software and we have good visibility, and do a lot more analysis of it. So I see us in a phase of integration and development where we're going to merge the companies, merge the data, and be able to use it effectively. But I will say without some type of software, I think that obviously you have Power BI and other tools that can utilise data within Excel and other native packages, but with a, a software package, you just able to use it across more broad spectrums that allows you to integrate it a lot easier into the portfolio and to help with decision making. As a EHS professional, we love data as Catryna's already said, it's everywhere all the time. But how we use it, what we use it for, I think that's where software really helps us enhance and bring about the value that we haven't always been able to get from it. Okay. And for listeners who might be thinking, great, but where do I start, Catryna if an organisation wanted to start integrating EHS and sustainability tomorrow, what are the first one or two moves that really make a difference? I think the first thing that you would want to do is to ensure you have some data maturity. That includes making sure that data collection is democratised because having one weary soul trying to collect all of the data that you need on both sides is not the answer. So thinking about how you're going to collect the data and what your data architecture is going to be, where is it going to go? I mean that step one, who's doing it, where's it gonna go? That's just step one. Step two, I would say, think about the six KPIs that you wanna focus on for your organisation. If you're an organisation that's already done a materiality assessment, you've already got material topics that you can focus on and collect data on those material topics and start your reporting there. But if you haven't done that, then think about just starting with six KPIs. And the top six KPIs are like water conservation, energy, your basic carbon footprint, your waste, governance, and maybe some risk audits. Start there, just start with six KPIs. Start collecting the data. Maybe your emissions also would be really great if you don't. Just depending on what's available to you. Start simple, start collecting that data and start looking at that data in relation to the safety data that you're already collecting, because you should already be collecting safety data. That's compliance level. You should have that and start making some comparisons. I mean, that, that's I easy, easy start super easy start. Just start where you are. I always say this, start where you are, make improvements with what you have. And then move on to the next step. Don't try to do something super complex. Don't try to, you know, solve every problem in the world as soon as you just start where you are and see what you have and see what small changes that you can make that can make a, a, a large impact. Baby steps. Baby steps. Monique? From from your side, Monique, what's the most common early mistakes companies make? I think one of the first things, and, and we've experienced it ourselves, is thinking we already know all the things and not utilising, the expertise of the Catryna's out there to help us understand what that looks like. But one of the things that Catryna said that was critical is knowing where we wanted to end up. So if you know where you want to end up with the data that you're, you're where, and what you're gonna use do with that data, it definitely helps. But a lot of times not having that vision of how you want to use the data, what data you want to use and what you wanna do with it, become the biggest hurdle to be able to set up a system that's gonna work effectively and meaningful for you. Because sometimes we just wanna say, we have all this data and we'll figure it out. But you need to have a vision in mind. And so I think that's one of the, the biggest obstacles that companies need to really overcome before they really jump into that is knowing where they want to end and what data they want to use and what they want to use it for. And who needs to be in the room from day one? Honestly, it needs to be the most diverse group possible. It needs to be ops, finance. I mean everybody really supply chain.'cause the reality of it is everything that we're doing impacts all of those pieces of the puzzle. So you wanna have a diverse collective group because you don't wanna do things that are important, for one that may not be impactful or may miss something another needs. We like having everybody there because then everyone has a say. You get the deferring opinions, you have collaborative conversations as I like to call them where you can agree to disagree or come up with solutions that you may not have thought of because you're thinking outside of the box. So you need the most diverse group with as many departments as possible to integrate and understand what that looks like and how it will be impacted. And again, how you're going to collect it, where it's gonna go, and how it's gonna be managed. All of those pieces of the puzzle are necessary.'Cause you don't want somebody to say, oh, I never heard of that. What, are we doing? That's like the kiss of death. The kiss of death. Yes, indeed. Sure. Sure, sure. And if we look, let's say three to five years out, how do you see the relationship between safety, sustainability, and supply chain resilience evolving, Catryna? I think we're going to absolutely see more environmental health and safety professionals having to have some sort of technical background because the data component is going to start to become so much more important than it ever has been. It's been really easy to separate the technical from your professional background and, you know, environmental health and safety. I understand RIS understand, you know, TRIR rates. I understand incident rates, I understand compliance reporting. But now you may also have to understand how to create a Power BI report. Now you may have to understand something about data architecture or a data lake or data management in general, or how to, admin and run environmental health and safety system. I think those things that have sort of been really separate before are going to converge a lot more because of sustainability and the increased emphasis on the collection of data for sustainability reporting and things like CSRD and climate disclosures in Australia and Singapore and other country level disclosures, and also just in America our own climate disclosures that are statewide. And every state has a different type of climate disclosure, which has its own data needs. Yeah. And Monique, what capability do you think organisations will wish they had built sooner? Well, I wanna add a little bit to Catryna's answer if you don't mind before I answer that question. But one of the things that I've learned, and I'm gonna tell a little bit of a story, so hopefully it won't take too long or I won't let it take too long. I never really knew what supply chain did or what they were, you know, it was just this word that people said, oh, the supply chain. And I was like. What do they do? I didn't understand it. And when I really got into the nuts and bolts of engaging with supply chain, I was like, why have we not integrated before? Because supply chain touches all the pieces of the puzzle, just like environmental health and safety or ESG, sustainability, whatever you wanna call it. Both do. I see the integration and the impact that we should have between those groups or departments if they're separate, is that when we look at scope one, two, and three emissions, guess what? Supply chain has a lot of visibility, connections, context. They know all the pieces of the puzzle already. We need to work better with them and integrate into understand these are the things we need and have collaborative conversations and discussions and education of our vendors and suppliers through that process. So I think that the collaboration amongst those and supply chain is very critical is gonna be where the future goes. Now I've already forgotten the question you asked me, so please ask. No worries. I was just asking what capability do you think organisations will wish they had built sooner? So it goes along with what I just said. I think the capabilities are gonna be that we get rid of silos, we get rid of departments that do only their pieces of the puzzle, and they stay in their swim lanes. We gotta get rid of the swim lanes and boil the ocean and bring it all together, because at the end of the day, that collaboration is gonna be critical for success. It can't be, I know this, I have this data. I'm gonna give you bits and pieces of it, but not all of it. And I'm not gonna let you connect with the people that give me the data because you don't need to ask them questions. You need to ask me questions, and we have to get rid of the silos. At the end of the day that's, you know, where my passion drives is getting rid of silos, bringing us all together, and helping us get to the finish line as a collective unit versus a divided unit. That kind of comes together at the end. Okay. Okay. And Monique, can you leave us with one thing supply chain leaders consistently underestimate? The one thing I think supply chain leaders consistently underestimate is the breadth of impact that EHS sustainability professionals have on the organisation. I think similar to my opinion of what supply chain was, I think they put us in a box sometimes and like, oh, you're just doing safety or you're doing environmental, not understanding the breadth and the impact of what we can have on the organisation and to the overall supply chain. So I, that's why I think education and collaboration will definitely help there. And Catryna one thing leadership teams consistently get wrong? AI will not solve your problems. AI is not gonna solve your problems. It's not, AI is not gonna solve your problems. Mm-hmm. Okay. You just need more AI. That's what it is. It's not gonna solve your problems. It's not gonna do it. Making good decisions. It's a decision architecture, like thinking about how you make decisions, what data you need to make those good decisions. That's gonna solve your problems. AI is not gonna solve your problems. I I, and it's so funny because I was just reading a statistic that 60% of UK firms have had supply chain related disruptions in the past two years, and they were looking for AI to solve the problem when really consistent personal supply chain engagement is the answer to your problem. Talk to your, the people in your supply chain. Those emails, those AI generated emails, read like AI generated emails and people ignore them. Put a personal face on these requests. Engage your supply chain. Good. Good, good. We are coming towards the end of the podcast now. Is there any question that I didn't ask that you wish I did or any aspect of this we haven't covered that you think it's important for people to think about? Maybe Catryna you go first. I would say, I mean, the question, the issues that we get presented the most often are supply chain issues. How do we engage our supply chain? How do we get this information from them? How do we magically make them comply? How do we make them make us look good? So. I mean, that's 75% I would say of sustainability and ESG reporting issues are supply chain. So I don't know why you would leave it to the end. Start there. Just, just start there. Like, address it from the very beginning. Make it a part of your enablement as you look for software, as you're, you know, looking for a consultant or however you've decided to address your reporting needs. Start with the end in mind, and if you know that, hey, supply chain has been our issue, just start with the issue that you have. Start with the end in mind and know that at the end what you wanna see is engagement. You wanna reduce your reputational risk, you wanna reduce disruptions, then start there. Okay, and Monique. I think the only, I won't say question, but the only point that I think is we mentioned but would could go some more value into digging a little deeper, is how do you get all of the parties within the organisation to speak the same language. I think that, you know, having some type of retreat or dictionary or glossary. Sometimes you have a bunch of acronyms and you give everybody the definition of those acronyms. But within our worlds and businesses, I think we need to do the same and talk about risk. What does it mean for each level in the profession, and how do we get one definition for the whole organisation? But I think it's more understanding each other's language. Understanding each other's priorities and level setting so that you do have a collective company-wide dictionary definitions and priorities so that we can all beat to the same drum. Okay. Very good. Very good. So folks, if people would like to know more about yourselves or anything we discussed on the podcast today, where would you have me direct them? Maybe this time? Monique, you go first. Oh, LinkedIn is the best place I check it frequently. That's where I go and connect with all the network professionals and engage. So feel free to find me on LinkedIn. Monique Parker, CSP Elevra Lithium. So I look forward and hope to get new connections after this conversation. Fantastic. And Catryna? I would say the absolute same. Please feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. I have a unique spelling to my name, so I'm easy to find. But if you wanted to send me an email at Evotix, please feel Catryna dot Jackson at evotix E-V-O-T-I-X .com. Perfect. Great ladies, that's been really interesting. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Thanks for having us Okay. Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of the Resilient Supply Chain Podcast with me, Tom Raftery. Every week, thousands of senior supply chain and sustainability leaders tune in to learn what's next in resilience, innovation, and transformation. If your organisation wants to reach this influential global audience, the people shaping the future of supply chains, consider partnering with the show. Sponsorship isn't just brand visibility, it's thought leadership, credibility, and direct engagement with the decision makers driving change. To explore how we can spotlight your story or your solutions, connect with me on LinkedIn or drop me an email at Tom at tom Raftery dot com. Let's collaborate to build smarter, more resilient, more sustainable supply chains together. Thanks for tuning in, and I'll catch you all in the next episode.