First of all, you have to believe in it. That's the number one mindset. Secondly, you have to put your money where your mouth is there and do it. And then the last step, obviously would be to run 'em and get the data and prove the concept works. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever you are in the world. Welcome to episode 83 of the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast, the number one show laser focused on the intersection of sustainability and supply chains. I'm your host Tom Raftery, and I'm absolutely delighted to have you joining me here today. Before we dive into this episode, a quick heads up. The podcast has a new way for you to support it and unlock more value. You can now become a Sustainable Supply Chain Plus subscriber for as little as five euros a month, less than takeaway sandwich, and you get full access to the entire back catalog of episodes. That's right. While anyone can listen to the latest 30 days worth of episodes for free. 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My guest today, Steve Saltzgiver, has spent five decades, yes, five, helping organisations from Coca-Cola to state governments rethink, right size and modernise their fleets, from electrification to maintenance, from culture change, to data metrics that actually matter, Steve's seen it all. And in this conversation he unpacks the realities behind the buzzwords. If your organisation touches transport, logistics, or operations in any way, this is a must listen episode packed with insights you can act on. But now let's get into it. Steve, welcome to the podcast. Would you like to introduce yourself? Thank you very much. Yeah. in the fleet business for well over 40 years now. Had stints at Republic Services, Coca-Cola North America as vice presidents. Managed two state fleets in the United States, Georgia, and Utah. Was a city fleet manager. And then I've been consulting for, gosh, probably 15 years now. And who are you with now? Right now I'm with RTA, which is Ron Turley Associates. They're a fleet management information system and a consulting company. And tell me a bit about your origin story. I mean, you just mentioned there all the different fleets you've managed. How did you get into fleet management? Probably like most everybody gets into fleet management by accident. I started out, I got married rather young. I was around 19 years old and I went to work for a manufacturer that built what we refer to now as yard tugs. They have a articulated fifth wheel that goes up and down and they tow trailers around yards. I went from there actually to a machinist. I became a machinist for about a year. They went on strike. I walked across the street and got a job at Utah Transit Authority. I forgot to mention that. I worked there for 15 years as a diesel mechanic journeyman. And then I actually drove a bus for a little bit of time, and then I was a supervisor. That led me to becoming a, I sold cars for a while, then I became a city fleet manager, then a state fleet manager, then a consultant, and then the state fleet manager again. Then I went to Coca-Cola, and then I went to Republic Services and then back to consulting. Okay. So, Brilliant. A storied career. Yeah. And, and obviously you've, without giving away your age too much, you've, you've been in the business for a couple of decades, at least now I'm what? five decades, So, Wow. Impressive. Impressive. And what, what would you say has surprised you most in your time as a working in fleets? you know, I think through the time that I've been in fleets, what surprises me the most now is the amount of technology we've had in the last probably 15 years. Technology, how vehicles have become so complex. It's, it's been kind of a challenge and at the same time it's been very exciting. And from your perspective, what's the biggest misconception people might have about fleets and particularly seeing as this is the Sustainable Supply Chain podcast fleet sustainability? Probably the biggest misconception I run into all the time is that how hard could it be? Everybody owns a vehicle that I can be a fleet manager. That's, that's probably the biggest misconception. The only problem with that is they don't buy thousands of vehicles at a time, obviously. As far as sustainability, I think a lot of people are kind of in the dark on that whole topic. I know lately we've put a lot of emphasis on that with carbon footprints and electric vehicle rollouts and things like that. But most people just really aren't aware other than what they hear in the news. And, and that's, you know few in, infrequent because of all the, noise out there, I guess. And are you seeing an increase in demand for sustainability across fleets?'Cause now you're in consulting, you're consulting to lots of different clients, presumably in the space. I think it depends, depends on where you are geographically. For example, here in the United States, I have clients in California currently Georgia all over the country actually. California, yes, they're very sustainable focused. It just depends on where the political atmosphere is. And then in Georgia, they're not so politically focused on that. I have a contract with Florida city in Florida. They're sort of lukewarm. So I think it all depends on what pocket of the United States you're in, what your political fervor is. And working across private and public fleets, is there a big cultural difference between the two? A little bit. I, I know when I was in the private fleet as long as we could get a return on investment or what we called an IRR, Internal Rate of Return and it, it was always good for the business. And if it, if it really gave us a, you know, a political advantage or a cost benefit, we would do it. We would move very quickly. In government, the wheels move much slower, so. And let's talk a little bit about fleet electrification. You've talked about using moderation as a stepping stone. What does that look like in practice for fleets that are just starting out? Well, primarily we work with a lot of government fleets, and as you can imagine, they have a lot older fleets. And that's for a couple reasons. One reason, obviously is that they depend on appropriations. Appropriations become political. And if they don't get enough money to replace their fleet, then they have this really old fleet. And old fleets obviously that old technology puts more carbon into the atmosphere, that's a problem. And so we always recommend that you bring your fleet at least up to the current standards, you know, within four or five years. That alone reduces your carbon footprint across and makes you more sustainable. If you have the wherewithal, we encourage that they do debt financing or loans or perhaps even leasing so that they can leverage capital to modernise their fleet a little bit quicker. And I assume it probably depends from state to state, but the, the move to the electrification of fleets, is that picking up pace? I think it was, but I think it slowed a little bit. With the different political change we've had here. I think it is always been I guess it's always been good as long as you get a cost a cost benefit to it, you know, Yeah. I think that most fleets would, would move that direction. I know that with the new technology, a lot of people love that technology. I myself just bought a, a brand new Toyota. It's not fully electric, but it is a hybrid and all the technology that's on that vehicle, this, this vehicle I've got, for example stops me before I get to the stop sign. That's how, that's how, that's how autonomous this thing is. And it Sure. would not let me run into a vehicle. It would not me run into an object. I mean, it's just, that technology's pretty awesome. But at the same time too, it warns me that I'm going too fast. I'm not being economical, as far as my miles per gallon, things like that. So it's, it's got a lot of good functionality. We're seeing a lot more of that autonomous technology hit vehicles now that are kind of forcing people to be a little bit more mindful of what's sustainability actually is. They'll put graphs on your, on your dash and everything. And so, I think it's become, people are becoming more aware probably because of the technology. Okay. And what about the insurance implications? Because I gotta imagine if you have a lot of those safety features onboard, the insurance costs have gotta go down, no? Actually, that's a pet peeve of mine. I just not interestingly, contacted my insurance company just last week about this issue. My newest vehicle, the one I'm talking about is my highest when it comes to monthly insurance costs, Wow. I'm asking him that question now and I haven't got an answer yet, but. And in my mind it should go down. Obviously Yeah. Okay. But you're, you're not seeing that across fleets either. I have not I can't, it's hard for me to say across fleets 'cause I haven't really analyzed or look at that. But hopefully at some point in time that will be a factor. Okay. And what would you say is the biggest barrier to fleet electrification that, you know, people may be unaware of? I think still the biggest, the biggest issue is cost over here. It's still a bit more than a conventional vehicle. And people just like I said earlier, with people not getting enough appropriations, they have to make a decision, how can I buy, five vehicles versus one vehicle or two vehicles versus one. And so it's really based on cost. The other thing too, that's why I always say, you know, use debt financing or something so you can leverage that cost. Yeah, But a lot of it is because of the political atmosphere they're in. That's, really what drives a lot of people to, do electrification over here. Okay. It's, it's not, it's not about cost reduction because the, the running costs of an EV are, you know, well, well lower than running a petrol or a diesel, plus, the maintenance costs are about 50%. Absolutely. Yeah. And I've done those analyses. I totally agree with you. A lot of people though, that are peers of mine or fleet managers, they don't get into the weeds like that, but we're trying to convince 'em of that. We're very pro electric where it makes sense and where it should be applicable, but people just aren't adopting it. You know, I've seen this go up and down throughout my career. A lot of it depends on the political atmosphere. The cost of fuel going up and down like it does. You know, when it goes high, they go electric. When it goes low, they go back to conventional. It's really kind of a, it's a, it's a weird cyclical pattern that we see. And how can small to mid-size fleet managers balance short term realities like those with longer term electrification goals? I think the first thing they really should look at is they need to set a goal of say, a 10 to 20 year replacement plan. And, and it kind of put that, put some thought behind that where they wanna be and, you know, in the, in the long term. And then look at their fleet and baseline it. Decide where they are currently. You know, what, what does their you know, their carbon footprint look like now? What do they want it to look like in the future? And then start moving forward with some goals. You know, and I've always said, if you can set some goals and then having continuous improvement objectives and start really looking at where you are and where you're going that really drives change. Fair enough. That makes sense. And I was talking a couple of years back to folks in Geotab. I'm sure you've come across Geotab, Yep. and they came up with a, an interesting tool to scan across a company's fleet and see each individual vehicle, what its route profile was like, and then they could look at the available EVs in any particular market and say, for this particular vehicle on this particular route that could be replaced by this type of ev. But for those other vehicles over there, they're not suitable yet to be replaced. There's no ev on the market to replace them. So I I, I thought it was an interesting way of approaching it to look at it individually, vehicle by vehicle, and the route that those vehicles take and see which ones were appropriate to swap out. Have you seen anything like that? I actually haven't seen that tool, but I appreciate you mentioning it because I just got done with a project up in the the northwest with the city. They wanted to do a complete electric vehicle plan up near Seattle. So we went through exactly that process. That would've made my job much easier than searching the internet and using AI to figure out what vehicles or models are out there. Turned out to be a very successful plan. They, they were very happy with it and they were probably start moving in that direction. But yeah, that would've helped us save me a lot of time. So I appreciate the, the mention. Okay. No worries. No worries. And you're a big advocate for preventative maintenance as a sustainability strategy. Can you break down how small fixes like daily inspections or similar, actually add up to big savings? Well, I, I think a lot of people neglect changing the oil, you and, understanding what, you know, what comes outta your tailpipe if you don't do that timely when, when you don't use the right oil. For example, those kinds of things. Anytime you have a vehicle that gets into a neglect state, it's not only all about carbon, but it's about that vehicle sustainability. You know, is it gonna run, is it gonna be dependable? So I'm a big advocate of doing proper preventive maintenance and predictive maintenance if you get to that point in your operation. And VMRS codes, how do you make them part of a sustainability story? That's really the language of fleet management. It's been around since 1969. They're called Vehicle Maintenance Reporting Standards. And what that does is it allows you to use your data and segment it so that you can drill in a little bit more closely to whatever the issue you're looking for is. So, I mean, if you're looking for vehicles for example, or maybe repairs, I guess would be the better question that may be affecting your operational sustainability, you can actually segment that, get yourself a top 10 list or something to start working on using those codes. Those codes range from, they really talk about the fleet. It's all about systems and components of the vehicle. That's what it's used for. And you've done a lot of work on fleet right sizing, how does right sizing go beyond just trimming the fat to actually support sustainability? Well, we have three things we do in the right sizing consulting projects that we do. Obviously, we right size the fleet, we get rid of vehicles that are not needed. People have a tendency to hoard or accumulate vehicles over time. A couple of reasons for that are they don't replace 'em timely, and so people don't have confidence in the fleet, so they just keep hoarding vehicles forever. So that's where Mo, that's where modernization comes in that we talked about earlier. The second aspect of that, the second leg of right sizing is right typing. A lot of fleets will get into a situation where they, they say, say they have a code enforcement that could use a golf court or a really small electric vehicle. Well, they just happened to have a 110 van that they had somebody turned in. So they give that to the code enforcement person. It's obviously a wrong type vehicle. It doesn't work for that application, but they thought they could make it work. The other third leg of that is right fuel. It's right fueling, and right fueling is where the EV's and the the alternative fuel vehicles come in. So we start looking at those opportunities to, to maybe put that electric vehicle in code enforcement or that electric van that goes around the university or small city geographically, those kinds of things. And can you share a story of a fleet that turned around its sustainability profile by rethinking its vehicle use and class code structures? Yeah. I did a project years ago with a utility company up in the Midwest, upper Midwest here in the United States. They were trying to change their carbon footprint, obviously,'cause they were utility. And, we did a right sizing study, right typing and right fueling. And we changed several of their vehicles to electric, several to alternative fuels like natural gas. We changed a few and we basically were trying to move out the conventional vehicles as much as possible. So it actually changed their entire dynamic of their fleet. And that was their goal. I mean, they were under, of course, they were under a mandate. Here in the United States, utility companies have to, look at alternative fuels because of the Federal EPAct issues we have here. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Although they're, they're changing day by day too. Right. Of course, everything's changing. We won't have, we won't have any regulations here in another couple years probably. It must be challenging as well to keep up with the types of alternate fuel electric vehicles that are available in any particular market because that they, speaking of change, change so regularly. I mean, I bought my first EV back in 2018 and it had a range of 250 kilometers, if I was lucky, if I was going downhill all the way and had a strong tailwind. And now the latest ev I bought I bought last December, and it has a range of about 600 kilometers, for example. So the, the range of these vehicles increasing all the time as battery technology improves, and of course, the price is falling as well. So. For professionals like yourself who are consulting on these matters, it must be challenging to constantly be keeping up with these changes and advising your clients appropriately. Yeah, I, the one thing I haven't heard recently actually from a client is a range anxiety issue. So obviously that that has been changing. Early on that was one of the biggest objections to even moving to an electric vehicle. Which I find kind of ironic, especially if you're in a small city that's geographic and you, you could literally drive all day an electric vehicle anyway. But a lot of them just have that paranoia that, oh, I don't wanna run outta charge, you know, while I'm trying to do my job. That's been a real challenge. The price dropping is certainly helpful. That's always been one of the biggest objections people have is they're a little bit more expensive than a conventional vehicle. At least on the capital side. Nobody really gets into the weeds on the operating side. If they would do a total cost of ownership model and look at it that way, like you discussed earlier, it would certainly pencil out. Fair enough. And you've judged the NAFA top 100 Fleet Awards for years. What are the common threads you see amongst the fleets that really excel? Good question. Probably those that Excel are probably more into data. In other words, they have the data that they can analyze and put together goals and objectives and continuous improvement plans. Those that are really focusing on the different pillars that we have in that program. There's 12 pillars that we have like accountability and teamship, things like that. So those operations that are really working on their culture, working on being more responsible, accountable. There is a sustainability aspect to that as well. So those that are moving in that direction get extra points. Yeah, it's it's kind of a package deal, I guess. But I think the thing that we see the most is those that are, that have a the ability to actually set goals and accomplish 'em is probably the number one thing that we see. Sure. And I mean, if they have, if they're big into data, not alone will they be able to accomplish them, but they'll be able to show that they've accomplished them. yep. And that, that's really the challenge of being the judge. I've been doing it well over five years now, and the, the challenge is, do I really believe this application? You know, there is some cases where I, I've gone out and done some consulting with some of the clients that placed in the top 100 and I'm, asking myself, boy, I wish I would've saw this place first. You know, 'cause there is, there is a few that don't. But then on the other hand, I've seen some that do excel and they have been good. So, that's a good part of that. We're actually looking at opportunities now. If they place in the top 10 to to visit those operations to make sure that we're having some credibility. Years ago, well three years ago, I put together a rubric and I suggested we use it to make it a little bit more objective. And so we've been using that and that's really helped us a lot because it used to be so subjective in the way it was rated. But that was probably before NAFA took it over. So it's now a lot more, has a lot more credence now as we've been doing it. Good. And how do you create a culture that not only accepts, but embraces sustainability, especially in an industry with deep rooted practices like, you know, fleets. You know, it's, it really starts with the leader and what their attitudes are and their goals. I remember when I worked at Coca-Cola for example, sustainability was a huge issue there. And it, it tied into everything we did every, like we were Recycle 100. We were sustainable vehicles. We had hybrid class seven and eight trucks. We had electric delivery trucks that we had running around the country. So it really starts with the leadership and the goals of the, of the organisation. And if you don't have goals from the leadership down, you want to be sustainable, you can create it at your level. I've done that throughout my practice. Right, and obviously changes like that require change management, which is never easy. What's one thing you'd say leaders often forget when rolling out these green initiatives? Oh, I'm trying to think of my change management days, but it's like head and heart, right? You have to change their head, you have to change their heart. But I I think, the biggest mistake they make is they don't articulate what's in it for everybody and why and why we're doing this. I mean, obviously if you can get down to the level of the rank and file people that are gonna have to deploy this. And convince them that they, that's really good for them and the organisation, whether that be branding, whether that be changing the environment for the best, for their posterity, things like that. Just really give them a picture that this is a good thing to do. And then get them buy-in. I've done some change management initiatives before. You have to find champions out there that'll help you as a leader champion this cause. So there's a number of things you can actually do. You'll always have the objectors. There's nothing you can do about some of them. You just have to help change them enough to get the implementation going. And what would you say is, getting back to data for a second, what would you say is one metric or insight you think fleet managers should pay more attention to if they want to drive real change? A couple of metrics. The granddaddy of all metrics in my mind is always vehicle availability. So you need to have vehicles available to do anything if you're a fleet manager. The other thing is you need to make sure they're being used. So utilization is a huge factor as a metric. That also plays into the earlier topics we talked about, you know, right sizing, things like that. Obviously there's a green footprint metric out there you should be tracking. A lot of these metrics I'm, I'm discussing can be configured on our, our software dashboard and many of our competitors, you know, so I always encourage people to, to really create your top 5 to 10 metrics that you're tracking and have those in front of your, when you boot up your computer, so you can see where you're at, where you're going, and track those continuously, and then make adjustments along the way. You've won quite a few awards for fleet sustainability. If you had to distill those experiences down, what would you say is the one practice or mindset shift that consistently makes a difference? First of all, you have to believe in it. That's the number one mindset. Secondly, you have to put your money where your mouth is there and do it. And then the last step, obviously would be to run 'em and get the data and prove the concept works. And then probably lastly, you have to apply for these awards. So, or, or someone has to nominate you. In many cases, I have not nominated myself. I don't like that. But someone in my organisation has nominated me and I've been proud to accept those awards on behalf of my team that I've managed. Can you share a story of a time when data or a culture change at a fleet really surprised you where you know something clicked in a way that you didn't expect? I remember this is not a sustainability one, but I remember early on in my career I had a horrible time with people entering the right odometer readings. And that can be a real challenge, especially when you're trying to monitor fuel. And I guess it does dovetail a little bit into sustainability. But I had more hairs than I had correct odometers. And so we went to, basically to the idea table and said, what can we do to change this cultural behavior problem? And we actually we liked to use a carrot, but in this case we used a stick and we decided we would charge them$5 for every errant odometer reading. And I watched that over three years drop from thousands to zero. So people were motivated by that data to stop that practice. And by having those accurate odometer readings that allowed us to do many other things in our fleet, you know, to make things a little bit better, follow those data trails that we had. Why were they putting in incorrect odometer readings? What am I missing there? Laziness for the most part. If you go up to a fuel terminal, it, it will take all zeros or all ones or all twos. And so they would just type in whatever they could to get their fuel and get on with it. So it was really just a, a change management discipline issue. And once their supervisor started seeing they were paying all this money for stupidity, they got after 'em. I, I didn't have to do anything else. Okay. Looking ahead, what trends or shifts in fleet sustainability are you most excited about? I am really excited about the autonomy of vehicles. I know that's not directly sustainability, but I like the idea of that taking the driver out of the actual operation of the vehicle. You know, the hard braking. The hard acceleration. Certainly it will have an effect on sustainability. I think some of the things that I've seen Siemens in, in Europe is doing some roads that will charge as you go. I like that technology. I think that will make a huge difference if we can get that kind of infrastructure all across the world. so people don't have to worry about plugins anymore. I'm trying to think if there's anything else. I mean, there's the models and the changes with the different electric modes. The battery technology is changing rapidly as we speak, and you've already mentioned that to becoming much more efficient for, you know, miles and kilometers travel. So I think we're just gonna see continuous improvement in this area and, probably missing something, but I can't think of anything else at the moment. Okay, no worries. Steve. Are there any areas you think the fleet industry is overlooking or underestimating when it comes to sustainability? Oh boy. You, you kind of got me for a loss of words on that one. I, I can't really think of anything that they're missing. I think it's if somehow if they could assuage politically people to move that direction, it would be helpful. I'm not really a proponent of mandates. I know that could help sometimes, but it, it's a double-edged sword. It, it runs people the wrong way and other people it helps. You know, so if they could make it so it's economical, if they could tell a better story so that people would move that direction just organically rather than being forced to move that direction, think that's something that could happen a lot better. And, and that, that probably goes back to the electric vehicle manufacturers. They need to tell a better story and show better data. You know, 'cause people are just consumers. If they see a benefit to them, they'll move that direction. You, you know, we found that out just in fleet in general by just by charging chargeback rates. If they see that we're charging $200 for an oil change and it's a hundred, a hundred dollars, they're gonna ask questions why we're charging double. So, it's the same thing with fleet, you know, and sustainability. If you tell the right story and it's compelling, people will move that direction. A left field question for you, Steve, Yep. if you could have any person or character, alive or dead, real or fictional as a champion for fleet sustainability, who would it be, and why? I love your questions. They're really thought provoking. Gosh, I guess, I guess in my case, this is gonna sound kind of crazy. I think John Wayne pushed it, I think people would, would go at sustainability because he had that rough, you know, persona to him. And, and people would say, oh, well if he can do it, it's good enough for me. So. Get off your horse cowboy and drink your milk. Yeah. That may, that may date that may date me and you, but, but that'll, Just a little. they can go on to Amazon prime or Netflix and find a John Wayne movie. There you go. There you go. Great. Steve, we're coming towards the end of the podcast now. Is there any question I didn't ask that you wish I did, or any aspect of this we haven't covered that you think it's important for people to be aware of? I can't think of anything really significant, but the one thing I would say, and I've encountered this over my years in the sustainable field, is make sure you pick good vendors, reliable vendors. I, I've had several vendors in my career. You know, we bought their vehicles and then they've disappeared from the market. And then we've had to come up with other alternatives to get those vehicles fixed. And, that's not foolproof.'cause I, I did pick at one time a very prominent OEM that actually just decided not to do it. That's always a challenge, especially when you're trying to get aftermarket repairs and warranty and things like that. But, and, and, and part of it is the nature of this business because a lot of people come and go in this business. If you see someone like General Motors or Nissan, and the Leaf, I mean, they've, they've, they've kind of committed to this. Those are good directions to go because they won't leave you hanging out there. So just look, look for those vendors that are reliable and, and will be your supportive partners in the future as you're going down this road. Okay, Steve, if people would like to know more about yourself or any of the things we discussed in the podcast today. Where would you have me direct them? Obviously I'm on the RTA Fleet.com website. That is our, our URL. You can also contact me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty prominent on LinkedIn. I think I have 15,000 followers at this point. And then you can always, I'm on x I'm on, you know, all those different platforms. And you can contact me directly by email if you'd like. It's ssaltzgiver@rtafleet.com. Brilliant. Fantastic. Steve, that's been fascinating. Thanks a million for coming on the podcast today. Happy to do it. It's very interesting conversation today. Great. You've given me some real thoughts to take home. Superb. Okay. Thank you all for tuning into this episode of the Sustainable Supply Chain Podcast with me, Tom Raftery. 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